Intermittent Fasting is MEDICINE: Reversing Diabetes & Obesity ft. Dr. Jason Fung || #61

December 30, 2019

– As a doctor you can’t face that, you can’t face that you have no idea what the hell you’re doing. So then therefore you
have to change the fact that it’s not reversible. It’s chronic and progressive and I’m doing the best that I can. It’s like aging. You might want to get young but there’s no way, you always get older. Type II diabetes it’s the same thing but it’s not true. And that’s the problem is it’s not true and it’s a reversible disease and it comes down to this, what we did was we took a disease that’s essentially a dietary disease and we gave a lot of drugs. And then we wonder, why isn’t
your diabetes getting better? Because we’re giving you drugs
to treat the blood glucose but here’s the thing, we’re so focused on
treating the blood glucose that we forgot to treat the diabetes. (upbeat music) – Hey listeners. Welcome to this week’s episode of the Human Enhancement Podcast. And I’m really excited to bring back one of our most popular
guests ever on this program, Dr. Jason Fung. It’s been about almost two years now and for those that are new listeners or want a reminder, Dr. Jason Fung is a doctor obviously but specializing in nephrology, a section of internal medicine. But I think what he’s really become a world leading expert on is intermittent fasting, low carb, high fat diets especially in a clinical use case. He’s founder of intensive
dietary management which has treated thousands of patients in managing their metabolic symptoms through fasting and low
carb, high fat diets, and also coauthor of
two bestselling books, Obesity Code and The
Complete Guide to Fasting. Welcome back to the program. – Oh, thanks for having me here. Yeah, it’s been great. I was just saying, it hasn’t
seemed like two years. It’s just flown right by. Great to be here. – And I think that just thinking about the momentum, I think two years ago, we were just starting to get into fasting as a community with WeFast. I think we had maybe a couple
thousand people at most and now we’re over 20,000 people plus in that group now. And I think that was around the time The Complete Guide to Fasting and Obesity Code I think were published around 2016, I think we chatted in 2016. So it was just when your
books just started coming out. But even at that time, you had a huge following as these books were being released. So what’s it like from your experience? I can share a little bit what it’s like over the last two years from my experience and what we’ve seen the community grow, but I’m sure in the center as one of the, I would say, the key thought leader
around a lot of these topics, what has it been like for you? – Yeah, it’s been very interesting because we’re seeing it sort of move into areas that you
would never have thought. So, for example, I come at it from a very
medical sort of standpoint. So I do kidney disease, I deal with a lot of type II diabetes. So that’s been my focus. I treat a lot of type II diabetics and I’m all about weight loss, getting people off their medications, reversing their type II diabetes. And that was my initial interest in it. But there’s so many different reasons that fasting can be
beneficial for somebody that we’re seeing it in
elite athletes, for example, we’re seeing it in
people doing martial arts and ultimate fighting sort of thing. We see all these people are talking about training
in the fasted state. So it’s really, we talk about cancer, we see about Alzheimer’s disease, so all these different
areas that can benefit but are really people
starting to really think about why they’re so beneficial. From a medical standpoint, so when I started doing
this about five years ago boy everybody thought I was crazy, like 100% of people thought I was crazy except for you maybe. But from a medical
standpoint, it’s changed because now you’re seeing it discussed, on The Today Show, it’s been discussed on The Doctors, you see it discussed on different shows. So it’s actually getting out. Now there’s still a lot
of skepticism about it but at least people are talking about it. For example, I’m coming down to San Diego for the spring conference which is the Obesity Medicine Association which is the largest association
of obesity specialists and I’m doing a key note. So it’s like, okay, well we went from boy
this guy’s a real quack to hey, what can we
actually learn about fasting that may give us an option? And that’s sort of the way I had always positioned it is like nobody has to do it but it’s an option for you. Don’t eliminate your options because it may work very well for people. In some people, it’s a great option. In some people, it’s
not a very good option but the bottom line is that you need to keep your options open so why not do it? There’s been a very large change. So even amongst the medical community which is one that I obviously
spend a lot of time in, I speak at medical conferences and I speak at local talks to doctors and you see that there’s
this real growing acceptance that hey, we should
really think about this because it makes a lot of sense. And then from your standpoint, you see this huge interest, this huge wave of interest. You see intermittent fasting on all kinds of mass media, social media, the interest is really
getting to fever pitch, it’s great. – Yeah, I think part of it is one, people are trying
it and seeing good results. But two, I think that published data is becoming more and more compelling. Like Mark Mattson at the NIH is publishing good work, there’s a bunch of researchers in the broad fasting
ketogenic diet ketosis space that are I think doing
good work on the RCT side just publishing good, good work. And it seems interesting, I think there’s other
I would say companies or groups around ketogenic diets like Virta Health publishing
interesting results about the ketogenic diet, reversing a lot of the end
points of type II diabetes. So I think it’s one, a perfect storm of data out
of peer reviewed journals. Two, clinicians like yourself seeing good results with patients and then I think the end
persons themselves are saying, hey I actually am off my insulin meds, I’m off my diabetes meds, I feel way better. I’ve never been this healthy. Something’s working. – Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing is that ketogenic diets and intermittent fasting are sort of related approaches because in the end what
they’re trying to do is really lower insulin. Sort of the acknowledgement
that too much insulin is really the underlying cause of obesity and type II diabetes. They’re both diseases of hyperinsulinemia, which is a word that means
too much insulin in the blood. So if hyperinsulinemia
is the cause of all this, who needs to say that these are diseases
of insulin resistance but that doesn’t help you because then it’s like, okay but then what causes
insulin resistance? You could say meat causes it. Then you should eat less meat. That didn’t really work. But if you understand that
the cause of these diseases is hyperinsulinemia then it leads you to say okay well if you have too much insulin, how are you gonna lower insulin? Because a lot of drugs are
not gonna do that for you and one way to do it is cut the carbs to
sort of a very low level which is a ketogenic diet. Another way to do it
is intermittent fasting because again, if you don’t eat anything, your insulin levels are going to drop. And that’s sort of what I talk about, I have a book coming out actually, another book called The Diabetes Code which is sort of the follow
on to The Obesity Code which explains sort of
what type II diabetes is and how that lowering
insulin is really the key to treating the diabetes rather than taking a bunch of medications that are just gonna make things worse. And so the ketogenic diet and fasting are sort of related in that way and you see that where one does well, the other also does well. Virta Health is very interesting because they came out with
that data in type II diabetes showing that a ketogenic diet could do very well for type II diabetes. But interestingly, they
don’t endorse fasting at all. They actually hate the stuff. – Yeah, let’s tease into that. I think that is the, I think what you said
aligns with my understanding of the space and research in the space, that there are different forms of lowering or approaching
the hyperinsulinemia problem. Can you talk about the pros and cons and also your clinical experience with IF and a low carb or ketogenic diet? How do you actually see this in practice versus being more on the dogmatic side of one versus the other? I think what you just said, it sounds like they’re more hand in hand, both tools to be utilized. Do you think there’s a conflict there? Do you use them together? What have you seen in your practice? – I use them together and this is the way we approach it is that it’s a toolbox. So that if one person
really hates fasting, then it’s like okay well then don’t do it because you hate it and
you’re never gonna do it. So therefore use more on the diet side but then you gotta be a little
bit stricter on the diet, maybe go more ketogenic which is less than 20 grams of carbs as opposed to just low carb which is maybe 50 even 100
grams of carbohydrates. Because if you combine a low
carb approach with fasting, then you sort of get the same idea. If you don’t like the fasting, then you go to ketogenic diets. And that’s sort of the clinical approach. Because everybody’s different. So we work with people individually. We have a program called the Intensive
Dietary Management Program. So you can get counseling or you can just join the membership and you get updates regularly. And the point is that there
isn’t the one size fits all. It’s not like everybody
should be doing the same thing because we’re all individuals. So maybe you need this and maybe you need that but there’s always gonna be workarounds that we could get you to the place that you want to go. And if you can’t do the fasting, maybe it’s because you don’t
have the proper support, maybe you don’t have something
that helps you through with the hunger and all that sort of stuff and that’s what we’re working
on developing as well, getting something to help people with it because in medicine the
thing is that it’s strange because we know that
weight loss is difficult and if you don’t eat,
you’re gonna lose weight. Well there’s not much brain power involved in understanding that. So if you don’t eat, you’ll lose weight. Then well that’s great, that’s one way of losing weight. That’s not particularly unhealthy for you. The push back that we always get is that well nobody’s ever
gonna be able to do it. It’s like, one that’s
not true because we’ve done it with thousands of people. And you have in your group, you said 20,000 people. So there you go, 20,000 people but you also know that
billions and billions of people around the world do it as part of their religion. So if you do Ramadan, if you do fasting during lent, if you do–
– Yom Kippur. – Exactly, there’s so many
different fasting regimens, Buddhism, Hinduism, all this stuff. So literally billions of
people around the world do it. But yet the push back is always, well you’ll never do it. But in medicine, if we say something’s really hard but you need to do it, you don’t say, ah well, forget about it. Like for chemotherapy for cancer.
– Chemotherapy sucks. – Exactly, it’s like, yeah it sucks so you’re just gonna die, okay, that’s no way to be a doctor. It’s like okay here’s something hard but you need to do it so we’re gonna help you. We’re gonna create these medicines that are gonna help with the pain. We’re gonna create these
nausea medications. We’re gonna put you in a hospital if you need to to get
through the chemotherapy, that’s what we do. We say, how can we help? Yet with fasting, we say, well, yeah fasting will take
away your type II diabetes but you’ll never do it so forget it, just take your insulin. What are you talking about? That’s no way to be a doctor. It’s hard so let me help you. How can we help you? Can we create support groups like what you’ve done
with your WeFast group? Can we create tea and stuff that may help with the fasting? Can we do other things like give people
information, give them books so that they understand
what they’re getting into, what to expect when
fasting, sort of thing? We have this book that’s
been on the bestseller list for like 50 years, What to Expect When Expecting because again, we know pregnancy is hard so let’s tell you what’s coming up so that you can prepare for it. We don’t have a what
to expect when fasting which is the reason I
had to write that book The Complete Guide to Fasting. – Yeah, no let’s talk
about those three aspects. Let’s talk about The
Complete Guide to Fasting and then the new book. I’m actually curious to hear, I think to me The Obesity Code, one of the core arguments was that the calories
in, calories out argument in terms of weight management was outdated and we should think about
obesity as a hormone or insulin problem. So curious to see how Diabetes
Code expands upon that. Too, you mentioned teas or other interventions
to assist with fasting. I know you recently announced a partnership with Pique Tea so let’s talk about that second. And then third, I’m actually curious to just zoom out and folks that are just
getting into fasting or just learning about it, we talked about individual
personalized programs but if you could just sort of summarize, again, this is to say that basically you said
everyone’s individualized but I’m gonna just say, if you were to say, hey, what is a protocol typically look like? Can we first start with a typical protocol and then go into the
book and other topics? – Yeah. So the protocols, we use a couple of
different core protocols. So for older people obviously, we’re gonna go more
towards a shorter fast. So you might do something
like time restricted eating, so a 16:8 sort of a protocol. – [Geoff] Daily 16:8, yeah. – Yeah this is for, we’re talking like 75, 80 year olds. We’re not talking a little
older like 45 like me. You just got to be a bit more careful. These people are a bit more frail. We treat very serious disease and we treat a lot of older people ’cause that’s my core sort of
population group that I see. So for older people, yeah, 70 years old, above, we’re gonna be a lot
more cautious for you. If you’re on a lot of medications, again, we’re gonna be a
lot more cautious for you and then we’re gonna make sure that you have a physician that is gonna adjust your
medications ahead of time so that you’re not getting into problems. If you’re not on medications, then you don’t have to be
quite as careful about that. As you get up, the next step would be a 24 hour protocol which is also sometimes
called one meal a day. So if you go from breakfast to breakfast or lunch to lunch or dinner to dinner, that’s about 24 hours
where you’re not eating. And that’s a pretty good regimen. Again, not particularly severe, but enough to get people into it and also create some good weight loss which can be sustained fairly easily. So it’s especially good, and this is what I do a lot
with myself is a 24 hour fast because honestly, it slides
right into your working day. So I’m 44 turning 45, I have kids. So it’s really easy for me to skip breakfast and lunch because nobody knows
if you miss breakfast, a lot of people just drink coffee anyway and half of the time nobody knows if you’ve missed lunch either and I work right through. So that gives me a lot of extra time. And I’ll say that I
typically do more fasting when I’m really busy because then I gain time. So today I’m fasting because I had to take some
time and do this podcast. And it’s great because now I can fit it in, it’s no big deal for me, it doesn’t really matter to me because I know that my body will provide the energy that it needs. But then I get an extra hour and I can fit in all this extra stuff. You multiply that by weeks and years and it’s like, oh you get
all this extra stuff done. It’s like, yeah because
I’m not spending all day figuring out where to eat. So the 24 hour schedule fits in very nicely into the working day. And then that leaves you your evening to have dinner with your family and to go out to dinner with your friends. It doesn’t disrupt you in any big way and your not doing it every single day, I’m not doing it every single day but three times a week, maybe twice a week depending on what your goals are and that’s one of our core
messages in the IDM program is that you gotta realize that the fasting is not particularly fun, some people like it, but if your goal is to lose weight, then change your regimen to do that. If it’s type II diabetes, which is a more severe condition that can have health consequences, then you gotta be a bit more severe. I remember I was doing it fairly religiously for a little while and then I realized I’m doing it not for any
particularly good reason, as in my weight was around
where I’ve always been, my waist size was fairly ideal, I don’t have type II diabetes and stuff. So I was doing it just
for the heck of doing it because I was talking about it. So then I was like, I don’t really need to do it that often. And now it’s more of a
time management tool for me than anything else. But that’s my goal now. So if my goal is to be
able to write my books and to do the podcasts and
do the blogs and stuff, that’s as good a reason as any. Then I’m gonna do more of that. But I know where my goal is, it’s not simply just a matter of this. And some people have
these different goals. So autophagy, which I don’t know if
we talked about before, but their goal is autophagy. So yeah, you’re gonna do it different. You’re gonna get more into
the slightly longer fast and you’re gonna do a water only fast. That bone broth is,
you’re not gonna do it. You gotta stick to the water only. So if your goal is for autophagy and the benefits could be huge but they’re mostly theoretical right now, then keep that in mind when you’re choosing your regimen. And then as we go into type II diabetes, we typically go into the longer ones and the more medically supervised ones. So 36 hours is sort of a standard regimen three times a week. If they’re on medications, particularly insulin, we have to adjust that before they go on. And then for severe diabetes, and this is where you
have to be very careful, is we start going into
extended fasts where, and the reason we do this is that we see a lot of people with severe diabetes and are on the verge of
developing end organ damage, that is eye damage, kidney damage, nerve damage and so on. If you don’t get that
controlled right away, once they develop it,
you can’t reverse it. It’s like the oil in your car. If you never change the oil in your car and then it breaks down, then you say, okay, now I’m
gonna change the oil in my car. – Too late.
– It doesn’t work. Same thing, if you’ve
shot your kidneys out, it’s too late. I can get your diabetes reversed, but I can’t get–
– Your kidney’s gone. Your leg is chopped off. – Exactly. So for those people we’ll
go into longer fasts. But again, we know why we’re doing it, we’ve got a goal in mind to reverse our diabetes very quickly so that they will have
the best chance possible of reversing their disease. And type II diabetes is really the sort of one of the areas that
I’m really focused on because it causes so much disease. That is that it’s not
simply a weight thing. It’s dialysis, it’s blindness, it’s amputations, it’s heart attacks, it’s strokes, it’s cancer. It’s a lot of human suffering all related to diabetes and as a physician, that’s sort of my goal area. But I acknowledge that
there’s tons of other areas. So people come to me
for cancer, for example, I’ll switch the regimen. There are people who want to do training like elite athletes, and I’ll adjust the regimen based on that. – Yeah and are there end points beyond just the time? Are you measuring glucose, ketones? Are you doing blood panels for
lipids, inflammation markers? – We often check the baseline
blood test for everybody and that’s more of a cover
your ass sort of move because you don’t want
to get blamed afterwards. So I will check a fairly
detailed panel on everybody although I rarely find any problems. The one problem I do find
sometimes in type II diabetes is a low vitamin B12 level because Metformin which is a very common medication, can actually cause B12 deficiency. So the last thing I want to do is find out after they’ve been fasting that their B12 is low and somebody say, hey, that’s
because they’re not eating. I’m like, no, I pick ’em up all the time. So I pick ’em up way before and I always check the iron, for example, because I don’t want somebody
to come back to me and say, oh, they’ve been fasting and now they’re iron deficient because I’ve picked that iron
deficiency up at the beginning and then everything kind of– – How often are you
doing these checkpoints? Before and after program or are you doing weekly or daily checks? – Again, it depends on the situation. – So I guess if you’re
more serious, then more– – Yeah, exactly. – [Geoff] Makes sense. – So for type II diabetes, for example, there’s a fairly standard
marker called the A1C which is a three month average. So I’ll often do blood
work every three months to check up on that. If it’s just weight loss and not diabetes, there’s no reason to do it
more than one or twice a year assuming that everything is going well. If it’s not going well, of course then you have to adjust and kind of go from there. – And I think that’s an interesting segway into just adjustments, right. So I think, a lot of people in our groups, always ask, oh should I drink, one of the recommendations
is bone broth, MCT oils, coconut oils, green tea, coffee? What are your thoughts? I think your point around bone broth perhaps not being ideal
for triggering autophagy because there’s amino acids and amino acid triggers mTOR which is what is hypothesized to control or mediates autophagy, you probably don’t want bone broth for an autophagy crutch. – Yeah, exactly. But for diabetes, it’d
be perfectly acceptable because that little bit of amino acid is not gonna do anything to you. It’s gonna have so little effect. And same for, a lot of people
ask about Bulletproof Coffee and MCT oils. So you’ve got calories but you’ve got very little insulin effect. So again, if your point is to
try and loser insulin effect for weight loss, for diabetes, hey that’s great, then you are going to be able to take the Bulletproof Coffee or MCT oil and still get the lowering
of insulin that you want. So keeping your goals in mind, you’d say, okay, well
that’d be perfectly fine for type II diabetes, bone broth, and typically we’ll use bone broth for more longer fasts, 36 hours plus. Something like the Bulletproof coffee is sort of acceptable
from an insulin standpoint but again, it’s sort of understanding what your goal is. Green tea is a very interesting substance and I’ve been talking
more about that lately. So just to get into that topic, it’s one of the things
that has traditionally, if you look at traditional
Chinese medicine, it’s actually one of the substances that has been always purported
helpful for weight loss and if you look at the studies, what’s interesting is a couple of things. One is that green tea when you give it in a study typically has much higher
levels of the catechins. The catechins are the
antioxidants and the flavonols, the compound that’s
thought to be responsible for the benefits. But there are much higher doses. There are like 10 cups a day sort of level which most people don’t get to. But that’s where the studies are at. And it shows that you can lose about an extra kilogram
of weight with that. What the catechins do is they block an enzyme called COMT. And COMT is responsible for breaking down noradrenaline. So if you block the COMT,
noradrenaline goes up. So what happens is that
you get this activation of the sympathetic nervous system and your energy expenditure can go up by about four percent. So not a huge increase but significant. So essentially when you’re losing weight, a lot of the problems come when your metabolic rate is going down. So if you can take the green tea catechins and increase your
metabolic rate that’s huge. The other thing that
they showed in this study from just 2016, a
randomized controlled trial is that when you compare it to placebo, you get a reduction in ghrelin. So ghrelin is the hunger hormone. And if you lower ghrelin,
you have less hunger which is exactly what people tell us. The green tea catechins, yeah absolutely and it’s very interesting. So it’s like that’s great because that’s the main
problem with weight loss is that you have too much hunger and your metabolic rate is slowing. That’s why people fail with weight loss. Now you have an all natural substance that people have been using
for thousands of years that increases your metabolic rate and lowers your hunger. And that’s what people
tell us all the time, they drink green tea and then their hunger goes away. And it’s like, that’s fantastic. But you have to get, to be up on the studies, oh the other interesting thing is that Asians have different– – I was gonna ask, caffeine’s also known to be an appetite suppressant. So were they controlling for that or is was it an additive effect? – Yeah, it’s an additive effect. In fact, when you compare catechins and caffeine or caffeine alone you get better effect with
the catechins plus caffeine. So it seems like that they
actually have a better effect. So what caffeine does, it blocks this other enzyme
called phosphodiesterase which also raises the noradrenaline. So they actually work
through different pathways. And of course, normal green tea has both catechins and caffeine. You can decaffeinate
but I don’t recommend it because if you want the benefit, you gotta have both of them
to get twice the benefit. So that’s just saying, it’s interesting because in some of the studies they show that Asians actually get a better weight loss
effect than Caucasians because, so you get an average weight
loss of 1.5 kilos for Asians versus .8 kilos for Caucasians. And the reason is that Asians have a higher incidence of
this high activity COMT. So that’s the enzyme that’s
being blocked by green tea. So if you’re Asian and you have a lot of
activity of the COMT, blocking it is gonna
give you a better effect. So it’s like, that’s really fascinating. But nevertheless, .8 kilos
is still a pretty good effect even for Caucasians. But it may even be better
for Asians which is huge because you look at the obesity
epidemic in China and stuff, it’s massive because the
numbers are huge over there. But in any case, it’s like, wow that’s fascinating. But the problem was, so I recommend this for people but then the problem is that the dose of catechins
you have to have is very high. You have to have up to 10 cups a day which isn’t feasible for most people and that’s where we worked with Pique Tea. So what’s interesting about Pique Tea, first their tea is really
great, I love the stuff. What they do is different. It’s an organic green tea and they get it from a single plantation but they do this cold brew crystallization where they actually steep it. You could probably do it yourself, you take green tea and you put water. So like cold brew coffee,
you could make it yourself, you put it overnight in the fridge and you let it sit for eight hours and then because you’re
extracting the catechins at low temperature you get more of it out. So you get two, three times the amount of these catechins.
– But the steeping process breaks down some of these molecules. But if you’re cold brewing it– – Yeah exactly. The hot brew will not get as much because you don’t have the
time and contact with it. So just like cold brew coffee, you go to Starbucks, you pay twice the price for this cold brew because it’s actually hard to make. This is the same thing but what they’ve done is they cold brew it and then they dehydrate it so it’s basically crystals
of concentrated tea. That’s all it is, it’s a whole food. It’s not like what they do in the studies which is kind of industrially
extract the catechins and then add it to the green tea. This is sort of a
concentrated cold brew tea, that’s all it is. But it’s in a single serve packet and then you mix it up and you drink it. It’s terrific. It’s a little bit more, obviously than cold brew coffee,
it’s a little bit more but if you want to get that benefit. So then what we did is we’ve created a blend
for fasting specifically. So we’ve made two flavors, one is with matcha which gives it a bit more body and helps with the appetite
suppressant, the hunger and then we did this ginger citrus because some people have
this gurgling stomach and issues with that and we found that ginger and also citrus is helpful for that. And personally I drink green tea plain so I don’t like the flavor myself but those are supposed to help, that’s what a lot of our patients tell us. So that’s what we’ve done and created a line specifically for tea which is not something that’s
really been readily available because we have people to
help with all kinds of stuff but then when you’re fasting it’s like, oh yeah, you’re out of luck,
just do it, man, just man up. It’s like, okay, you don’t
do that for anybody else. We create stuff to help them. So because nothing was available, we created this. Bulletproof Coffee is a similar
idea but it’s different. That people use as a fasting aid as well. They don’t always say that but that’s essentially what they’re doing. – It’s basically what they’re doing but I think the thing
I think kind of funny with Bulletproof Coffee is that you’re eating
like 500 calories of fat. So it’s just like you’re
getting a lot of calories. I think the thing is you see some people on a ketogenic diet at a certain point, it’s still, you’re eating a lot of calories and it’s hard to lose weight if you’re eating 3,000 calories of butter. So I like the tea ’cause again it’s very acaloric if there’s any calories,
probably close to nominal and it sounds like there’s
a 3, 4X amount of catechins. So instead of having to drink 10 cups, you can drink two cups. – Yeah, two, three cups and you’re good and it’s still a whole food, it’s really just cold brewed tea. It may help you with the fasting, then you get all the benefits and it makes it a little
bit easier for you. And that’s the whole point is to really try to make something that will help people. Obviously if it doesn’t help you, then don’t take it,
right, there’s no point. But if it helps you, then hey, you’re gonna
get a lot of benefit from the fasting. And if the tea helps you fasting, hey great, that’s terrific. – So p-i-q-u-e, p-i-q-u-e tea. So folks that are interested. I’ve had it before. I remember seeing some of their product I think out of San Francisco. So yeah, it’s good tea. Give it a spin for our
listeners out there. I think with the interest
of adjuncts to fasting, I think one thing that
we saw that’s interesting from a ketone ester
perspective, one of our products was a paper published
actually near your backyard, UBC, University of British Colombia showing that acute use of ketone ester actually reduces glycemic response. So what that means is that a
ketone ester versus placebo before a sugar test, an
oral glucose tolerance test which is a standard test that tests for insulin
resistance or sensitivity reduced the glycemic response. I’m curious to get your thoughts on that if you’ve had a chance
to review the paper. – Yeah, absolutely.
– And your thoughts on exogenous ketones broadly? – I think exogenous
ketones have a role to play and this kind of goes along with the fasting aides and sort of thing because it’s not quite
a whole food obviously but again, it’s something
that may help along the way. So there’s a couple of things. One is that the properties of ketones have not been well
appreciated for a long time. I don’t think anybody
really looks at that ever. But lately with this interest
in the ketogenic diet, you’re getting these
really, really interesting things popping up like oh hey, you can
treat seizures with it, oh hey, you can enhance
athletic performance with it. Oh hey, if you get fat adapted, hey, endurance athletics may
be particularly beneficial if you’re running your
body off of ketones. And the point is that if
you take a ketone supplement you can get your ketone levels
much higher much faster. So the fastest natural
way to do it is fasting but if you take a ketone ester, you’re gonna get way
higher right away almost. So is there some benefit to that? And increasingly a lot
of evidence says yes, there could be some
potential benefits to it because some cells
perhaps run a lot better. And of course the brain
is one of these areas that has been studied a lot and I think a lot of doctors are sort of, they stick to the prescribed
script sort of thing and it’s very interesting because the ketogenic diet was originally described
a hundred years ago as a treatment for seizures. And then it got lost with the development of medications. And it took, not a doctor
but a film producer, this is the story of
the Charlie Foundation. So the son of a famous Hollywood producer had intractable seizures, nothing worked, none of the meds worked, he had all the best doctors and it took him researching the archives to find that this ketogenic
diet would reduce seizures. So he tried it on his son and boom, all his seizures went away. And it’s like okay, that’s a great story. Why were the doctors
not the ones to do this? Because they knew about it 100 years ago and then they totally forgot about it. And it’s like, it takes
a Hollywood producer to tell you how to do your job? Are you kidding me? And I always think that
it’s very instructive because a lot of these things
get met with skepticism by the mainstream medicine professionals but when it works, it works. Then your job is to
understand why it works. And ketones falls into that range where maybe there’s some
benefits to doing it but if it works, don’t just say, oh that’s quackery because that’s what everybody says, oh, I mean I got my fair share of that, oh fasting, that’s just quackery. Now it’s like, oh, yeah,
of course it works. Of course it works, you’re not eating so your
blood sugars will go down. It’s like that’s not what
you said four years ago or five years ago. You said, that’ll never
work, you’re a quack. I’m like, but if you don’t
eat, you’ll lose weight. They’re like, no you won’t. I’m like, how are you
not gonna lose weight? But this is the same thing with ketones. So in that study what you see is that there’s a benefit to the ketones in terms of reducing the blood glucose and of course, this is one of the areas that I’m very passionate about
which is type II diabetes and hey, is there a benefit there? So it’s very preliminary obviously but maybe you can use it
as an adjunct in some way. Maybe you can use it in
conjunction with a ketogenic diet or conjunction with fasting or some of these dietary mechanisms or even with your regular medications and maybe you can lower the blood glucose and is there a benefit? So maybe the answer is yes. We don’t know. All we can say is that
it’s worthwhile studying. The other thing that I
think is very interesting about exogenous ketones in
type II diabetics anyway is that you can measure this
ketone to glucose index. So as your blood glucose
falls, your ketones should rise because your body is
essentially switching over from burning glucose to burning
ketones and burning fat. Well, this doesn’t always
happen in type II diabetics. So if your glucose falls,
your ketones don’t rise. – Then you feel like shit. – Yeah exactly. So you got no glucose, you got no ketones, you’re just feeling like crap. Now if you stick it out long enough, your body will eventually produce ketones because it’s not gonna die. But in the meantime, it’s not as easy as it could be. And we’ve studied this. We know that this glucose
ketone index exists and that there are different
slopes for different people. So normal people glucose down, ketones up. type II diabetics, a lot of them, glucose down, ketones not up so what do you do? Well that’s where exogenous
ketones could have a benefit. Maybe if you define the
proper place to use it you could say, okay well
we’ll give ’em ketones until they get into that
ketonic state themselves and then they’re gonna derive all the benefits.
– Endogenously produce it. – Exactly ’cause they can’t
endogenously produce it. It’s great if you do endogenous ketones, that’s the whole point, but what if you can’t? Then exogenous ketones
is a great solution. So maybe, and again, more
research is gonna have to be done to sort of define the best
solution to this thing but here’s something that
would be very, very interesting to look at and potentially consider. And you could definitely mix it up. So if you’re trying to get
into that ketonic state but you’re falling into
this low energy state where you have no glucose, no ketones, you can bridge it with exogenous ketones until that fasting kind of kicks in and you produce endogenous ketones. It’s like, hey that’d be a great solution. Then you can start getting better from the diabetes and stuff. So yeah, so many possibilities here and I think that that paper
was a great first step saying hey– – No I agree, I agree. We gotta send you a couple cases so you can start experimenting and if there’s a way to
publish some of the results, I think that’s how progress is done. No, I appreciate your perspective there as someone who’s looked at it clinically across all types of interventions. So the last topic I want to
talk about was Diabetes Code. So Obesity Code, awesome book. It was one of the key books that I had read to get really
ramped up into this space. What are the new grounds that you’re planning to cover? So that book comes out in April, right, so in about a month? – In April yes, in about a month. So the Diabetes Code is very specific towards type II diabetes and it’s important for a lot of people because if you look at the
population of the United States, the adult population, it’s about 14 to 15% type II diabetes and about 38% prediabetic. So almost actually a little bit over 50% prediabetic or diabetic. So it actually affects
a huge number of people. – A hundred million plus people. It’s one of these numbers that people don’t understand. – It’s crazy. And one of the things, the main thing that we talk about is that this is a reversible disease. So everybody tries to convince you that it’s a chronic and
progressive disease, that you’ve got it, you’re gonna have it for
the rest of your life. But it’s actually not true. You can actually reverse it and we see that with studies
of say bariatric surgery where they do weight loss surgery. When you lose the weight, the diabetes just goes away and what I do in the book is really present a paradigm of diabetes, of thinking about type II diabetes. And the easy way to think
about type II diabetes is think of your body as a sugar bowl. Your body just has too much sugar, that’s the whole disease. If you have too much
sugar, your bowl is full and then when you eat, all that sugar spills out into the blood. So insulin which is sort of a standard
medication for type II diabetes does not get rid of that sugar. What it does is it takes the
sugar that’s in the blood and rams it back into your body. It’s like, oh okay,
well your body takes it because it’s forced too but then it just keeps getting more and more stuffed with sugar. So then eventually that
insulin that you’re using is not enough to cram the sugar into the body anymore.
– And you need more and more insulin. – That’s what you do. So what we’ve done is give more and more insulin. And then because the medical
treatment doesn’t work because you never treated
the underlying cause, we say it’s chronic and progressive. And why do doctors say it’s
chronic and progressive? It’s actually because doctors simply cannot admit to themselves that their treatment is
so spectacularly wrong. Because think about it this way, you’re an endocrinologist, you’ve spent 20 years in the field treating type II diabetes and under your watch, 98% of type II diabetics
have gotten worse. You know they’re getting worse because you’re increasing the medication. So you can either say one, this is a reversible disease, therefore, so if you
put two facts together, one it’s a reversible disease, we know it for a fact ’cause when people lose
weight, the diabetes goes away. Two, almost all my
patients are getting worse. The only conclusion you
can draw from that fact is that you’re a bad doctor. You don’t know what the hell you’re doing. Because it’s reversible but your patients are getting worse. You’re not doing a good job. As a doctor, you can’t face that. You can’t face that you have no idea what the hell you’re doing. So then therefore you have to change the fact that it’s not reversible. It’s chronic and progressive and I’m doing the best that I can. It’s like aging, you might want to get young but there’s no way, you always get older. Type II diabetes, you
say it’s the same thing but it’s not true and that’s the problem is it’s not true and it’s a reversible disease and it comes down to this. What we did was we took a disease that’s essentially a dietary disease and we gave a lot of drugs and then we wonder why isn’t
your diabetes getting better? Because we’re giving you drugs to treat the blood glucose but here’s the thing, we’re giving all these, we’re so focused on
treating the blood glucose that we forgot to treat the diabetes. You give insulin, are
they gonna lose weight? No, the answer is they’re
gonna gain weight. So how is that gonna make
their diabetes better? It’s not, it’s gonna make it worse. – It’s a band-aid. – It’s a band-aid because you’ve put a
band-aid over a bullet hole. Then you can’t see it and you pretend that you’re better. So these drugs are essentially
placebos for doctors. They make the doctor
feel good about himself but they don’t do
anything for the patients and that’s the problem. But it’s such a simple thing. If it’s a dietary problem, you gotta use your diet to fix it. And here we have a solution, intermittent fasting or extended fasting, where it’s completely free, it’s available to everybody like tomorrow and anybody in the world
can do it at any time. And you’re gonna save money, you’re gonna make your diabetes better and think about it, if you don’t eat, your
blood sugars will drop. Well hey, if your blood sugars drop you don’t need that insulin anymore. But what you’re doing, of course, if you think about that sugar bowl is you’re letting your body burn down all that
sugar in the sugar bowl. Now when the sugar comes in, it just doesn’t spill out anymore. But it’s 100% natural solution. Is it fun? No it’s not fun. We beg people to do it, we club them over the head, we threaten them, we yell at them. We do what it needs to do. But in the end what we’re doing is we’re trying to take advantage of the body’s own ability to heal itself instead of giving pills. And that’s where it’s really powerful and that’s where we created this Intensive Dietary Management program, the website is where you can get somebody to
help you with your fasting. We put them in group situations where you can get support. We do have this membership site which you can join for a lower monthly fee which is not personalized but you can get things like group fast which is just like what
you do with the WeFast which is where you have somebody and we’ll say, okay, everybody
we’re gonna fast these days, who’s in? And we’ll have tips on fasting and recipes for when your not fasting and all this kind of stuff. But at the same time, it’s all dietary stuff. We’re not trying to
give people medications. We’re trying to take
that medications away. So here we’re like we can save people all this money. Even if you don’t care about your health, if you don’t have to buy that insulin, you’re gonna save a lot of money. And to insurance companies, hey, your patients are gonna get better and you’re not gonna have to
spend all that money on health. Everybody wins. – Except for the insulin producers. – Yeah, we won’t worry about them. – No, I agree 100% with you. I think just seeing the stories in WeFast, people literally getting off of insulin through fasting and diet, Dr. Manny Lamb that we work closely with and I know works with you as well, he’s taking people through
fasting and diet protocols and taking people off there
Metformin and insulin. It’s just like okay,
something is working here and the way I think about it is like you talk about it being hard. Well, exercise is hard too. If you’ve never worked
out in your life, it sucks but we all know it’s helpful for us to do some workouts. I think the same thing will change with culture and with fasting. The first time you fast is gonna suck ’cause it’s like working
out your liver and whatever, it’s working out your body
to go into a fasted state. But you get used to it and it’s healthy long term. – It’s what you need to do to get better and that’s what I always say. I get this push back a lot
from people that are like, yeah, we understand why it’s good but people will never do it. I’m like, I’m a doctor, my job is not to tell you
what you can and cannot do. My job is to tell you what
you need to do to get healthy and if fasting is what
you need to get healthy then I will do whatever I
can to support you through it and we’ll create the fasting tea and we’ll create the
IDM Program to help you and we’ll create these
support groups like WeFast, we’ll create these ketones that maybe help you get
through the tough areas. But that’s the point is like we’re helping you. We’re on the same team here. We’re not at cross purposes. We’ll help you do what we can. We’ll do what we can and you do what you can and maybe together we can get you healthy. I’m’ not gonna tell you you can’t fast because I don’t think
you have the willpower. That’s such a defeatist
attitude, it’s terrible and you see it all the time. And again, it’s just like your group. It’s like when you tell
people that it’s great, hey, all of a sudden you get 20,000 people when you start showing it online, I was talking to Samaya yesterday and it’s like all of a sudden
you’re on the Today Show and people are like, wow,
this is really interesting. It’s like, well these are not new ideas. These are ideas that have come sort of from the mist of time. People have been doing this
for thousands of years. The three most influential people in the history of the world, the prophet Muhammad,
Jesus Christ and Buddha all told their parishioners to fast. Not because they wanted to kill them because they knew that there was something
intrinsically healthy about once in awhile letting your body clean itself out of all this extra junk that’s accumulating. And that goes for not just the glucose but also the excess
protein that’s accumulating and that’s what autophagy is. You’re breaking down these
subcellular components, this old junky protein and trying to replace it with
something newer and better. Can it prevent cancer? Potentially. You know that the World
Health Organization now labels 40% of cancers
as obesity related. It’s like here we pretend that
cancer is a genetic disease. And it’s like, it can’t be genetic because obesity accounts
for 40% of the cancers. So breast cancer, for example, is very highly related to obesity. So therefore it’s not genetic, it’s related to the obesity. – Like the Warburg Theory of cancer. – Yeah, the Warburg Theory. There’s so much interesting
things about this whole thing and we think about cancer in this way but say you turn down and this gets into the nutrient sensors, which is another sort of
fascinating topic because– – mTOR, all these pathways. – mTOR, AMPK and insulin. So your body actually is very,
very interesting in knowing if you have access to food. Because if you don’t have access to food, your body does not want to grow. So nutrient sensors and growth pathways are very, very tightly linked. And you see this in the ovary as well for polycystic ovary
syndrome, for example, you can treat it very
easily by lowering insulin. But the ovary has insulin receptors. Why? Because the ovary wants to know that there is lots of nutrients available before it ovulates, produces an egg that can potentially become a fetus and a baby. You do not want to be in
the middle of a famine and producing eggs that can become a baby. You’re gonna kill the mother which is gonna kill the baby because you have to divert resources into growing this fetus. So the ovary is very interested in knowing if there’s available nutrients. So one of the things that the body has is several nutrient sensors. So there’s insulin, so when you eat, insulin goes up, so that’s a nutrient sensor. mTOR is the one for protein and there’s one called AMPK which is sort of this
fuel gauge of the body. So it’s a reverse fuel gauge. So when it’s high, it
means your energy stores, cellular energy stores are low. So it’s a fuel gauge but it’s reversed. If your AMPK is low, it means
your energy stores are high and this is why a lot
of people take Metformin because it activates AMPK. And so it tells your body that it’s in a low energy state which is actually helpful for you which actually may help prevent cancer. So there’s a few studies that say well Metformin can help
protect against cancer. And it’s like, why? Because it lowers AMPK. And it’s a very interesting sort of idea because again, if you turn down, if the body is not sensing any nutrients, it is going to turn
down the growth pathways and the things that is growing the fastest are those cancer cells but also for things like
polycystic kidney disease. I had this lady once who has, very interesting had hemangioma and what those are, hemangiomas are these little
benign tumors of the kidney. Anywhere, they’re blood vessels and they bleed a lot. So she actually had to
get one whole kidney sort of resected because
it was bleeding so much she would’ve bled out. And they had to embolize
two other hemangiomas which just means they clot it off and actually kill it off.
– Like burning it. – Yeah, it’s like burning it. So anyway, a few years ago, she decided that she’s gonna do
intermittent fasting instead. So what’s fascinating is that if you do this fasting, she’s had her ultrasound
measured a few times and on each one they say, well it looks like the
hemangiomas getting smaller but we know that never happens so it might just be a fluke. Yet she’s had four that have shown that it’s shrinking in size. Fantastic. Because we understand what’s happening. You’re eating zero so you’re turning down
all your nutrient sensors, you’re turning down you’re insulin, you’re turning down your mTOR and you’re raising your AMPK. Ketogenic diets are not gonna do that. They’re only gonna turn down your insulin but they’re not gonna affect AMPK and they’re not gonna affect mTOR. Therefore, fasting is a
much more powerful way to turn down your nutrient sensors. The body senses there’s no nutrients, turns down the growth pathways which affects the hemangioma much more than it affects other cells. So then all of a sudden you
get this shrinking of this, it’s a benign tumor but this hemangioma, this benign tumor, and all of a sudden she hasn’t bled for the last year and a half. It’s fantastic. And it’s like wow, the power of that is simply amazing because it’s free and it’s available and hey, you might lose some pounds and you might reverse your
diabetes on the same breath and you may prevent the
Alzheimer’s disease. So again Alzheimer’s disease is this clogging up of your brain with all this excess protein–
– Amyloid, tau. – Amyloid protein exactly. So what if you could activate your body to break down all those protein? Intermittent fasting. It’s like whoa, this is amazing. mTOR goes down, all of a sudden you stimulate autophagy and you’re breaking down protein. – One of the interesting
theories around that as well is something that we’re looking at is that perhaps Alzheimer’s has a nickname of type III diabetes. It’s a glucose uptake
dysfunction in neurons. If you can feed it through ketones, can you rescue cell function and help clear out some
of the tau and amyloid? Which is related to some
of the similar pathways you’re talking about. But I think mTOR, AMPK, insulin are some of the most targeted targets for drug and food. So I think it is very cool that we can activate
them in the right ways in the right levers with fasting. In Silicon Valley, people are looking at Metformin, Rapamycin which is a target for mTOR as potentially longevity hacks. Those might have additive
or adjunct effects on top of fasting but it’s all within
that related ecosystem. – Yeah, it’s all in that space. Yeah, exactly. How are we gonna increase longevity? I think actually AMPK
plays a big role in that. But what’s interesting of course is that you can target it with Metformin, you can target it but you’re not gonna
turn down your insulin. If you eat Metformin, you’re gonna target the AMPK. If you eat Rapamycin,
you’re gonna target mTOR. You’re not gonna affect
the other pathways. So fasting actually simultaneously affects all three pathways. It’s like wow, that’s way more powerful and it’s natural and then you go back and say, hey, let’s look at
these wellness practices for the last two, three thousand years. What do people say? Oh hey, you should fast once in awhile. You go back to Hippocrates, you go back to Benjamin
Franklin, Mark Twain, they’re like, oh, “The
best of all medicine “is resting and fasting,” that was his quote. It’s like, whoa people understood this thousands of years ago that yes, if you want to be well, you should fast once in awhile. And it’s like, oh, they
were totally right. We think, oh yeah, if you want to be well I’m gonna take some
Rapamycin and Metformin and it’s like okay well I think
you’re gonna be better off with the other guy with Benjamin Franklin who was fasting because you’re gonna
affect all of the pathways at the same time and do it naturally rather than in this artificial way because you can turn
down sensors and stuff but it’s hard to inhibit them long term and it’s hard to inhibit them completely and this sort of thing. – I agree, I don’t think
it’s a magic compound ’cause human biology is a complex system. You can’t just push one pathway and expect everything else
to just work magically. I think it’s like these
are interesting levers and I think intermittent fasting is one of these things that just happens to touch a
lot of them in the right way, in a way that’s natural, it’s part of evolution. We are designed to go through
fasting and famine cycle or feasting and fasting cycles and it’s been conserved throughout, C. elegans, rat, mouse. The data’s just good. – The data is good because if you look at AMPK and mTOR, so insulin is actually the most recent of the nutrient sensors. mTOR goes way back and AMPK goes way back. They’re conserved from these nematodes, the C. elegans and the drosophila, the fruit flies and stuff. You can find them in every form of life. It’s like wow, these things
are essential for life and thousands of years ago
humans figured out a way that would actually
help extend their life. So it’s like wow, this is super fascinating as a topic from an
evolutionary standpoint, how are we gonna do it, how are we gonna use it to kind of hack our life? We all talk about biohacks and stuff and it’s sort of like
the ultimate biohack. It’s natural, it’s free, it’s available. We just need the knowledge
and the acceptance and people can tap into
all these superpowers in terms of health and wellness. – Absolutely. Yeah, let’s build up the culture here. So a lot on your plate. So you got the fasting tea in June, you got the book Diabetes Code in April. Anything else in the pipeline? What’s the future? I mean I’m sure we’ll have a conversation and have you again on the podcast, hopefully not another two years. – Yeah, for sure. – What’s next as you’re looking forward? – Well, I’m working on a couple of things. Obviously, we’ve done the books and we’ve also built up the IDM Program to actually be a solution for people to actually get some help. So it’s an online program but then people can get
help with their fasting, get help with their diet and so on. So that’s something that
we’re working on building up and trying to roll out so that people can benefit. Excuse me, so that’s Then I’m working on a book on PCOS which is polycystic ovary syndrome and the reason I’m doing that is one of our IDM partners
is Dr. Nadia Pateguana who is very passionate about this. And the reason she is is because PCOS is also a disease of hyperinsulinemia. Therefore, as a disease
of hyperinsulinemia, fasting and low carb diets work very well. But what we have is PCOS which affects somewhere around 10% of the target adult women. And one of the big problems
with PCOS is infertility. People are spending tens
of thousands of dollars, a lot of money, because they’re infertile
because of this PCOS and yet it’s so easy to treat. It’s crazy that we could save them. And I have two kids and I know, it’s incredible to have kids. Then they become a pain in the ass but before that it’s incredible. I’m just kidding. But it’s incredible to
be able to give somebody that sort of gift because it’s sort of
so intrinsically human to want to have a family, to want to have a big family. If you can’t have that, it’s like an amputation, it’s like having your leg cut off. People want to have family, people want to have kids and to have to spend $10,000 a shot for in vitro fertilization is ridiculous because PCOS is treatable, so easy. So that’s one of the things I’m working on in the longer term. So I get asked to write a lot of stuff but what I really want to write is about stuff that can
make a difference to people and where I can bring something new to it. So something like PCOS, there’s just not any information. So the Obesity Cody, there’s just not a lot of information. Type II diabetes reversal,
not a lot of information. Guide to Fasting, there’s
not a lot of information and then PCOS and then in the longer term, maybe some cookbooks that will help people and then eventually a book on cancer which is, again, really,
really fascinating from a– – Cancer Code? – Perhaps, I don’t know. There’s a lot that’ll go into it. But right now the PCOS is a lot easier because cancer’s not simply about obesity. It’s actually a lot more than that. It’s about a lot of these– – And there’s so many etiologies too. It’s like a bunch of microdiseases in one umbrella term essentially is the way I kind of think about it. – Yeah, I think cancer comes down to I think it’s about the
mitochondrial disease, it’s about all those nutrient
sensors we talked about, but it’s also about
apotosis and autophagy. So there’s a lot of
topics that get in there and it needs to be worked
out a little bit better. But there’s some super
interesting theories. So we had this sort of
genetic theory of obesity that was crap, it was terrible and that’s how cancer medicine is like the worst of the worst, you look at the progress. So Nixon declared war on cancer in 1971. If you look at the rates of cancer now, they’re about the same as 1971. – And how many billions of
dollars have been spent? – I know, how many walks for cancer, how many pink ribbons? There is so much money going to this that has done absolutely nothing. It’s like as if you,
with your iPhone in 2018 was still using those giant
vacuum tube room size computers. That’s the equivalent. How can you make so
little progress in cancer despite the billions of dollars, probably trillions of dollars?
– And good efforts like good people want to do good work. It’s not like people
are just wasting money. I think people are earnestly
trying to solve this problem. – Oh, absolutely. But I think it started
off on the wrong foot which is that this is a genetic disease. And when you start off, it’s like if you’re trying to go south but you start off by going north, it doesn’t matter how fast you run, you’re never gonna get
to where you’re going. And that’s the thing, we started off looking at
it as a genetic problem and we kept going and it was a disaster, this whole cancer genome atlas totally tells us that we
went in the wrong direction for 50 years. And people still want
to go in that direction because they’ve built their careers on it. And if you don’t recognize your mistake and start going in the right direction, then you’re never gonna get there. And that’s the real problem with cancer. But it’s a much more complicated topic than simply obesity, type II
diabetes, PCOS sort of thing and it’s not simply fasting. Fasting is gonna play a role but there’s all this other
stuff that goes into it. So that’s maybe the long, long term but it’s a real interest of mine getting to the bottom of what
causes cancer, what cancer is and trying to change
the paradigm of thinking of what cancer is which is not a genetic disease. – 100%. Appreciate, I like that
you’re still staying ambitious and pushing forward. In the last couple years, I think we’ve just seen the community and interest and the science just grow. So I’m just excited to see what yourself, our communities, can continue to do to I think really help people live better, healthier lives. So thank you for taking the time, Dr. Fung and we’ll talk soon. – Okay, thanks Geoff. – And before I sign off here, we’re doing something new. We’ve created a new
email [email protected], [email protected] to be our source of collating all your
feedback for our podcast. So send any requests for
guests, podcast ideas or feedback for myself and Zil. We’ll read every single
one of your emails. So again, [email protected],
[email protected] And one last thing, we’re doing something
new starting this week. We’re gonna give away a Sprint Mini for every single customer that
leaves a review on iTunes. So leave a review on iTunes, take a screenshot of that and email us with that
screenshot at [email protected] and for all the customers in the US, we’re gonna send you a free Sprint Mini as a token of our appreciation and for your support for our program. So high level in conclusion, [email protected], leave an iTunes review
and then from there, we’ll send you a Sprint Mini as a token of appreciation.

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